Empathy Over Comparison: Navigating Conversations with Cancer Patients

Hey there, lifter uppers. I'm Deb Krier, the co-host of Cancer and Comedy, where our mission is to heal people who have been impacted by cancer through hope and humor. So, we like to call turning the grim into a grin. Thank you so much for joining our conversation today as we talk about why empathy, and not comparison is important to supporting those with cancer. And what's the difference? So, here's the host of cancer in comedy, Dr. Brad Miller.

Hey, thank you, Deb. Always a pleasure and a privilege to be with you and our cancer and comedy audience, our lift or uppers. This is the place where we look to turn the grammar of cancer; however you're impacted by it, into the Grand of celebrating your life. And we're all about developing a community here to help people help one another and to be helped with a message of hope and humor to help them cope with hope. And we're here to help people get connected to our community. And you could do that by following the podcast. You just go to cancerandcomedy.com/follow. Hey, Deb, I like to start things off oftentimes with a couple of really bad dead jokes. So, you're ready for one year? I'm ready. What did the fast french fry say to the slow hamburger?

I have no idea.

You better catch up. I guess, yeah, that's pretty bad. I know. One more. How do you buy a discount boat?

I have no idea. How do you buy a discount boat?

You look for the sales, of course.

I know your granddaughters provide you with these. And they're cute.

They get a lot of them there and just have them stored up from years of dumb jokes.

This is true. With our conversation today, you're going to want to stick around for it. Yep, there's more Dr. Brad's Bad joke of the day, and our very important Faith It or Break It segment.

The main part of our conversation here today is going to be understanding this issue that Deb, you wrote about in one of your recent blog posts. Understanding without experience, I want to get into that. But I wanted to tell you something about me just this morning; I was watching the sports news, and a pretty ESPN commentator who I liked is a football commentator named Chris Mortensen. I talked about his passing away from cancer at age 72. And it made me think, Oh, my guy is 72. That's not really that old. I'm 65 myself and just a man that is not old at all. I also called a couple of weeks ago. I heard a story about a World War Two veteran who was getting ready to have his 100th birthday. This guy had been in combat and wounded in the war. He had gone through something like 25 or 30 surgeries over the last 40 years, many of them cancer-related. And yet he was still vibrant, alive, and kicking to get after it. And I found myself doing the comparison game, a little pity party about the guy who died at a young age, and thinking, man, I can make it too if this guy who's his World War Two veteran could make it. I could do it, too. And because I thought, okay, these guys, I don't want to be like one, and I want to be let the other, but how does it impact me? I was interested in your story here about your recent blog posts on TryNottoDie.live about this comparison part of the comparison game that we sometimes play about understanding without experience. I didn't have the experience of this guy dying at 72. I didn't have the experience with the guy on his 100th birthday. I have my experience. But unpack his force a little bit. Why did you write this article, this blog post understanding without experience?

Thank you for putting me on the other side of the mic and having this discussion because I think it's something that's very important. It's all about people who say I understand what you're going through. And no matter what, our situations are unique, right? When and what happened when I decided to write this? I had been in a mastermind group with a group of people who I absolutely adore. And more importantly, they have very good business experience that they share. And so, it's a great mastermind group. And we were talking about our future goals. What were we planning to do? Where were we going to make millions? Were we going to be on stage, whatever it was? And I said it is a little hard to do that when you don't know exactly what the future holds. My diagnosis is stage four breast cancer; stage four breast cancer is not curable. So, we're just in the waiting game. Now, the nice thing is I've made it past some of those key places where we worried and just went merrily along. But it is something that I'm always thinking about is so thinking about I can certainly plan for the rest of the year, but a five- and 10-year plan. I just don't know about that. And I mentioned that to this group of business people. And they all said, oh, yes, we understand we shouldn't put off doing important things. We need to plan to do all of those things. Right away we and when they meant well, but by them downplaying my concerns, it did hurt my feelings a bit. And now I didn't say anything to them because I knew that was never their intention, and they would have felt very bad. But it did make me think when we tell somebody, I understand what you're going through, do we?

Very interesting in a very well put, because so many times, people tend to put their foot in their mouth when they're just trying to do too much. Or they're trying to put they're trying to do a comparison where my bad news is a false comparison. I'll give you a quick one on my own life. Last night, I talked to my, my daughter, who is as my two granddaughters were ages six and three. And the topic of the conversation was everybody's had the flu, lots of vomiting and diarrhea. And then their kids had lice and this kind of stuff, and my car. And she was saying how her life was in turmoil. And I said, Whitney, that she's going to build your character. And she didn't appreciate that too much. But the point was her dealing with her kids and sickness was a problem. But it wasn't quite the same as when we dealt with people who were dealing with cancer and other things like that. But I just got the feeling this situation annoyed you enough to give you some incentive to reflect on this situation by writing this blog post and maybe too, in a way, have a helpful answer to people who may be somewhat flippantly given an offhanded remark that I get it, I understand you, but they don't know.

And I'll give you an A good example. There, a young woman reached out to me several weeks ago with the exact same diagnosis that I have. Now, my diagnosis with everything added into it is actually fairly unusual. So that was in and of itself unique, that she had the same diagnosis. That's where the sameness ended. Because she is a young woman, she has three small kids, all sorts of things. And so, I couldn't say I understand what you're going through because I'm not a parent. Now, do I understand her fear? Yes. Do I understand her anger? Yes. But there were other things that I simply could not understand. And, so I tried to really make sure that I wasn't doing the Been there done that type of thing. Specifically asked, that's very different. She says, hey, what was your experience with this, then it's okay. But the important thing is that we need to listen first.

Is this of you one of the things you say in your article is you talked about the pitfalls of comparative empathy. Is this one of the things you're talking about, we need to be careful to listen before we react. Is that one of those there.

It is, and really make sure that we're not diminishing what somebody says. And that was what happened in the mastermind group when they all said, oh, yeah, we know exactly what you feel. Now, they might I don't know enough about them. So, they might actually have a very serious diagnosis. Hopefully not. When we tell somebody, you have, we know what you're going through without actually listening to what it is that they're saying. In essence, we're saying we really don't care. I guess that was not the intention of what they were telling me. But that's how sometimes it comes off.

I think you use an interesting phrase in your article that kind of minimizes the emotional toll, and I just don't think we can do that. It is for your life. What you're going through is front and center, and it's prevalent there, and others cannot minimize it by 20 just to move on. Sometimes, people get uncomfortable, and they just want to move on to something else.

Definitely, we don't want to hear about it. So, we're just gonna go on. It's funny, when I posted about this on my website, I told people I said if you haven't been in the situation of somebody who is dealing with cancer in particular, If you don't know what it's like, every day, take a shower and think, am I going to find a new lump? Or what is that cough? Or I've got this new ache, this new pain; what's going on? And for many people who have cancer, that really is what we go through every single day. And God bless the people who don't. That is. And I think that's absolutely fabulous for them. But yeah, it's hard to understand the fears that we have every day if you haven't been there.

I think it goes to what is authentic and what is authentic, and how we can respect people's situation and try to either say something that's appropriate or don't say anything in the power presence. What do you think are you experienced something that I believe that you feel was a little bit inauthentic or a little unhelpful? Put it that way? What do you think would be some authentic responses that you might have gotten through your mastermind group that might have been helpful instead of hurtful?

If they had just, yeah, we get it? Yeah, that would have been right there. And there's a difference between empathy, which is having experienced it, and compassion, which we all want to have for each other. And just to say, we get it. And sometimes it's, is there anything we can do to help? But yeah, just to say we understand, that's a big part of it right there.

I think there's also a little nuance here between empathy and sympathy. Empathy is what we experience with people, and sympathy is what we kind of project onto something. Well, yeah, we're sympathetic, for there are such situations that we need a little bit of both of these really, but we need to empathize. Being empathetic with another person means we want to feel their pain but not discount their pain and kind of what I believe that you're getting at here, and a lot of pain. And a lot of this has to do with comparisons. Because we all have our own bubbles, we all have our own circumstances that we live in, whatever they are, whether you know whether our pain is because we have cancer or whether our pain is because we didn't get to deal with a business deal that we thought or we, we had to I, the other day, I was in a grocery store, and a lady who works there gave me a lot of a hard time, and I felt bad about it all day. It was a little minor dispute. So, the out lady gave me a little a hard time, and I gave her a little bit of a hard time. They, we need to be careful in our comparisons. Because of what we're going through, we don't know what the other person is going to really do.

We have no idea. It actually could be worse. And when and so that's where it comes back to just acknowledging what they said. And the times when people have talked to me, and I've said, you know what? I'm sorry you're dealing with this. That was what they needed to hear. Not Oh, I understand. I've been there. I've done that. They didn't need him. And there are times when I will say bad words. Or if somebody tells me they have cancer, I usually say bad words. And then I say, okay, now we got that out of the way. How can I help you?

Yeah, I think it has to do with understanding everybody's journey is unique, isn't it? Everybody's journey is special and unique in its own right. And when there's a time when someone needs to vent, so to speak, when they need to share in May, maybe just a short burst, or it may be a more drawn-out story. But there's a time and place for that. And there's a time and place for us to be good listeners as well. And that journey varies. And I think it has to do with having that ear or that set. My wife likes to say you don't read the room very well. I need to you need to read the room better. So, what are what do you think are some ways that we hear on our podcast episode can be helpful to people who are struggling with this, both from the cancer patient's point of view and maybe that person who wants to be helpful and says, Man, I know I stuck my foot my mouth last time maybe I could do better next. Now, what are some tips or some approaches that people strategies people might be able to use here?

First, if they say oh my gosh, I stepped in it last time. Acknowledge them and thank them because it's clearly been bothering them, and we don't want that to happen. And forgive them. Giving them that grace is one of the things that we need to do from the other perspective. I do not need to hear about your grandmother's cancer 40 years ago. I don't, and to be honest, unless I asked you, I don't want to know your experience either. It's it is something where I very well may ask, Did this happen? Did that happen? What did you find? But let me Knee broach that subject, as opposed to just leaping in with it. Here's my experience. And it's funny, one of my favorite TV shows is The Big Bang Theory. And one of the things that people hate the most is when Sheldon jumps in, and is he's been there, he's done that. And he's the expert, right? The expert. And if you're not, you want to, and I love it when they take him down a peg or two, right? But we don't want to do that. Because people, I think one of the things that we, as cancer patients, need to remember is that people are trying to be supportive. They are trying to help us. They just don't always understand how. So again, give them that great, and it's okay to cut them off in mid-sentence and say thanks. But I don't need to know right now what your grandma went through 30 years ago. What I do need is this or something like that.

Yeah, I think it's important to basically own your own situation if you're the cancer patient now, and control it as best you can, and to get allies and advocates to help you as well. And I've seen this, particularly in a hospital room setting, this type of thing, where it's where if you've been hospitalized for a few days, or I know you've had extended state hospitalizations, I've seen it happen where that relative or friend or somebody just comes in and just plopped down in the campsite and says, I'm here, I'm staying. And it's not helpful. What I mean by that is you did overstay your welcome. And it's not helpful. And we get into some of that granular stuff from way back when even to the point of, here's what this medication did for me. And here's what it says on this website, or whatever, about these types of things. It's just about being so at that point, I've seen it happen. I've been part of it sometimes where someone has to say, okay, so and so needs to get her rest or try to be tactful about it. I've also seen it to the point where we just have to set certain parameters, a fifth 15-minute visit, or whatever it is, and then we really need for you to go on. Do you think those are not any helpful tips here at all?

Yes, and I love that you said to read the room. It is so important from both sides. For us to do that. If you're the visitor, maybe they have drifted off. And so, you're thinking about leaving. If they've completely gone to sleep, then it's okay to leave; they're not going to notice. But then they might say thank you for your visit. Or they might say it's okay, stay a little longer. Go with that flow. Pick up on what they're saying. Suppose they're wanting to share, even if it's not something you want to hear because you might be sharing the icky details about what's going on like that. If somebody wants to share, sit there and listen. No, that is the hard thing. But we, as the patient need to read the room also. One of the things that I talk about a lot is somebody will say, hey, Brad, how are you doing today? And, of course, our immediate response is usually I'm fine. This is where we need to read the room. Did somebody really want to know how we're doing? In that case, then we can say having a bad day, I'm having a good day, here's what's going on. If it was just those who were passing by you in the hall, how you were doing today type of things, then they don't want any more information. And so that's the thing. And I think that's one of the things that people are hesitant about when visiting with us is they don't want all of those details. They don't want to see your incision; they do all of those things. And we, as the patient, need to read that too. I had people who came into my hospital room, and I looked bad, really bad. I truly was on death's door. And God bless them for visiting. But they couldn't handle that. And I could tell that and so I did everything I could to thank them so much for their visit. Keep it to about 510 minutes, and then say thank you so much for coming. I'm sure you've got other things you need to be doing and having fun. And then I did have others who would come whether it was here at the house or in the hospital or wherever. And they were prepared to sit and just watch me nap. They brought a book. They did whatever, and you know what? It made them feel good and it made me feel good to have somebody there was fine that I was snoring away.

I think it has to do with a couple of things. I wanted to comment on that. It has to have specific needs for air. There's some time if you're in the hospital and you're being treated, and you've got doctors and nurses coming in and people doing their thing. And their job is to care for your physical needs and other people can come and be the emotional support and things like that. And different people have different roles. If your husband's there, that's a little different role than a coworker company who was busy with you. But also, whether if you're home and you aren't in that recovery portion, maybe you do need somebody to just be a little more of a sunny day has to do with this reading the room say, I think some of this also goes to the other cues that we can pick up on the tone of voice, posture, right, since a presence and just tried to pick up on if somebody is really a list listening or not those type of things that that sense of wanting to be there needed to be there, rather than making the rounds, that kind of thing. So those are all important things there. And I want to say that this, I think a lot of this has to do with respect, don't you think so just kind of thought.

And respect are both sides. Does the patient have to respect that they are truly making an effort and they care? That's the thing they care about; they might not be going about it the right way, but they care. And then from the visitor’s point of view, we need to respect that this could be a really tough time for these folks. And they want to be alone, or they would give anything to not be alone, things like that.

I remind them of a book I read quite a few years ago called The Seven Habits of a Successful Person. And one of the first ones of those seven habits was to seek first to understand in order to be understood, yeah, people are not going to really want to listen to you until they think that you're listening. And I think that's something that might come into play here. And just a couple of things I wanted to mention here that I thought were important that I picked up from your article. Cup, I made a couple of notes to myself, one is presence over pity, be present. But this isn't a pitiful situation, you poor thing. This kind of thing. In most cases, people are still alive and vibrant. You know, I've mentioned a couple of times that my uncle died a few weeks ago, but he was there, and he was alive and vibrant to the very end. It wasn't a pitiful situation; there were no thanks for it. But he was there he was present. So, I think it's presence. And understand it's there as every situation is unique. And comparisons aren't always helpful. As I mentioned about the guy who died at a young age from cancer, the guy lived to be 100 after 40 surgeries or whatever. That's still not my situation; it's still not mine. I have my own unique situation. The other thing I picked up on was support over smothering be supporting I reminded myself of that smothering mom or relative who just feels like they got to be there on top of things. So those are some of the points I picked up on. However I wanted to make sure we leave our conversation with anything that you feel like you need to share, particularly to that person, be there the patient or be this supportive. Person impact by that: what are some thoughts that you would have that may be helpful to that person who's going through this situation?

Again, from the patient's perspective, understand this as difficult for them, whether they are someone who loves you or they're just a coworker. It is hard for them to see you going through this, and understand that and give them that grace. And again, they are there because they want to help. So, remember that and don't, don't get quite so cranky with them. It's okay also to stand your ground and say, I'm really tired. This has been a great visit. But then, from the perspective of those who are providing support, the best thing is to ask what they need. And be specific about it. Even if you say, you're in the hospital room. Do you need me to get more water? Do you need to bring you a puzzle book? Do you need me to just sit? One of the things that always happens is we don't know what to say. So, we say, Brad, just tell me if there's anything you need. We are so overwhelmed with everything that you can't figure it out. But one of my favorite stories is about a friend of mine who was caring for her husband, and she said some of her friends showed up one day at the house and said we are here to clean. And she said initially she was mortified. And then she was incredibly grateful because she hadn't had time to clean and do any of those things. Now, I'm not saying just show up. Maybe ask them do they need this done. Do you need me to run errands for you? Do you need me to come in? Do you need me to come and just sit with you? And more importantly, do you need me to drive you somewhere? That's sometimes that's one of the biggest issues: we can't always get where we need to go. Or maybe will say hey, you know what, drive me to my appointment, and then I'll treat you to lunch afterward, and we can catch up. But don't say, you know, tell me what you need because we're gonna go okay, thank you.

Be specific about several things here. Be specific, and try to be helpful, not overbearing here. Being a good listener is another aspect here; empathy and sympathy all come into play here. Be compassionate. All these things come into play. But the comparison is not necessarily helpful, and to be in smothering is not helpful, several good things here. And you have got lots of good things on your website and your Facebook group, page and group as well. And if people want to learn more about you in terms of this particular article or anything else that you offer, tell us how they can find you.

Again, thank you so much. I think this is an important discussion. We didn't add a little humor in there. And you know what, let me add to that if you can go and visit and make somebody laugh that's even been there you watch I Love Lucy, tell bad dad jokes, something to perk them up a little bit. That's good. But you can find out more about what we're doing at www.tryingnottodie.live. You'll find everything you need to know there, including a link to our Facebook group.

And, of course, part of what we do here at CancerandComedy.com has tried to develop this community of people who have a like-mindedness in terms of finding ways to cope. That's really what we're talking about here: coping mechanisms as at work and how that works through people primarily. And we work through the medical system and all that type of thing. But we're talking here, through relationships, how coping is and how to do that appropriately. And I love it, love what you're doing, and I appreciate you sharing a little bit more about this important topic, understanding without experience.

I love it. I love it again. Thank you so much. As Brad mentioned, it is about how we can support each other. We would love for you to be part of our Cancer and Comedy community, where together, we can crush cancer with a message to cope with hope and humor. Please follow Cancer and Comedy at cancomedy.com/follow. Now, once again, it's time for Dr. Brad's Bad joke of the day.