“Cancer, Psilocybin, and Inner Journey: A Story of Healing, Yoga, and Joy” with Alice Grasset

All right. Our guest today is Alice Grasset. She is from sparklegrace.com, where she offers coaching and workshops with a holistic approach to deal with cancer in her life and help people find some balance and harmony between mind, body, emotion, and spirit. Alice, welcome to our conversation here today.

Hi, Rod, really nice to be with you today.

I'm just interested that the name of your website and the name of some of your programs have to do with the word sparkle. The name of your website is Sparkle of Grace, and you have sparkle in some of your teaching that you do. Alice, what's something that's brought a sparkle into your life recently?

It's a beautiful question. Thank you, Brad. What comes to mind is two separate events. But I think, in a way, they're a little bit connected. So I started two new yoga classes because I'm a yoga teacher. And one class that I started is with young kids, five to seven years old, teaching them yoga. And then I'm teaching also a yoga class to a group of cancer patients and survivors at a senior center to see the joy that people experience when they practice yoga and the joy they have to be together, you know, to be able to talk to each other. So the little children, of course, they're going to play with each other. And the adults, you know, it's more about talking about sharing what's going on in their life that brings me a lot of satisfaction and that really nourishes my inner sparkle.

Yes. And you sound like you have both ends of the age spectrum, little ones and older folks. And so that kind of tells me that you get a little sparkle, a lot of joy, in your life, no matter what your situation is age or health-wise.

Growing up, I was more like an anxious kid, you know, I was more like the worrying type, waiting for the second shoe to drop. But one of the things that adult life, and I think also a lot of my consumer experience, has taught me is that worrying, you just suffer twice. So you suffer because of the old scenarios that you have in your head. And then if something bad happens, and bad things will happen in life, you know, there's nothing we can do. It's life; we're all gonna have negative events happening to follow.

But bad things do happen to everybody. Yeah, book I read a book I read a long time ago called "Bad things happen to good people," some, unfortunately, some kind of rough thing. So bad things happen to you, didn't they?

Yeah. So when I just turned 40, I got diagnosed with breast cancer. So I recently had moved from Europe. So as you can guess from my accent, I'm not American; I'm French. And at the time, I was working for a pharmaceutical company, and I moved to the US because they were opening a Center just outside of Washington DC. And about a year after moving, I went to see my OBGYN because I was a little bit worried about something that I was feeling in my breast. It was not something new. It's something that I knew that I'd been checked when I was in Europe, but I just wanted, you know, confirmation that everything was okay. And so I went for a mammogram and an ultrasound. And they confirmed that what I was feeling was fine, that it was benign. But on the other side, they found a cancer tumor. So right from the start, doctor, we did ultrasound, she was convinced it was cancer, there was no doubt for her. But of course, you know, then it's biopsy and a number of exams to understand exactly what it is, and suddenly your body belongs to the dark day they sort of take over your life force. There's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of fear that I wanted, you know, to play my own part; I want it to take ownership of my health and my healing process. So I decided to make a number of lifestyle changes, one of them being around nutrition, and also to turn to yoga and meditation. I was that I decided to go to a daily practice. So really, you know, to practice in the morning and the evening, having you know, that time just for myself. I started to work with one of my hypnosis teacher. So at the time, I was taking a Hypnosis Training in New York, and one of the main teachers had been exactly through the same thing. She also had been through breast cancer. And so I decided to work with her to also get you know that additional support and to be able to deal with the anxiety, to deal with the fear. It

sounds like you had a lot of things happen here; you've mentioned anxiety, you've mentioned fear, you've a little bit, let's go back a little bit about kind of the moment when you heard that word cancer, or that moment when it kind of hit you, me became real for you. Tell me a little bit about that moment, what was going through your mind and about kind of what you were experiencing?

The fact that the doctor was so convinced, you know, right away, and it was really, really shocking for me because one minute I was just lying down; the minute after, you know, it was like, you have cancer, you know, it was very, very hard to say abrupt shift, your life just changes in just in a few seconds.

There, cancer in and of itself is a very heavy-weight word, isn't it? You know, it just, yeah, absolutely.

John was for my family because my parents live in France, and my brother lives in Italy. And that was my first thought, you know, the fact that I was so far from them. That's where my mind went directly was like, how am I going to tell them? You know, they're so far. And I had so little information. So I think that was really my first reaction was my family. And

Yeah, it is a shock. And part of what we deal with when we have this kind of situation happen is just to, it kind of knocks the breath out of us. And we have to, we have to have a moment to recover. And the doctor was very convinced. So there was not a lot of gray area here. Here it is, boom, what are we gonna do about it?

Yeah, exactly. I mean, of course, the doctor I was convinced, you know, and after that, it was about understanding what stage, understanding if it was only in one breast, or maybe there was something else, you know, trying to really make the full evaluation. So that's when the series of medical appointments start, right? So all the MRI, and I had another biopsy because they had a doubt about another area, you know, so all of that starting to take place. But, you know, like, being able to go back to the practice, to be able to go back to the yoga and meditation, it was really my anchor. It was very quick, actually, in the process that I told myself, I want to do something good. I know that I'm going to go through a very challenging time, or it's going to be stressful, I want to take care of myself, I want to build that space where I'm going to be able to reconnect and be at peace.

Etc., yet are relatively abbreviated time of anything like depression or devastation. Was that a part of your journey that you had to go through a little bit of darkness in order to get before you came out to some positive things?

Yeah, it's a very interesting question. I think very quickly, I turned into action, somebody, you know, who likes taking action. So very quickly, I turned into action. I mentioned, you know, the diet, the yoga, and the meditation. I did experience a very rough time, three years after my diagnosis, okay, you know, it's almost like a delayed response, if I can say that way. And it's interesting actually, from my diary that I was writing, you know, when I was going through cancer, and if you read the diary, what you see is rather overall positive thinking. I was the head very, very strong will to live. You know, I was making plans about the things I wanted to do, the travels I wanted to do, and also changes that I wanted to make in my life. So if I read the diary, it was rather positive, and at that time, reconnected with my spirituality, something that I had probably lost over the years. And the cancer and going through that, you know, often we turn to spirituality when we are going through a tough time, right? Reconnect inside with something bigger. So that was very important. That three years after, so after the, you know, getting the green light from the doctor and everything too. It was around the time of COVID, hard time, right for all of us, I think, you know, to be in lockdown, not to see our friends, not to be able to travel and see my family, missing all the social interactions, I mean, so I started to develop a very strong fear of recurrence. I was very afraid that the cancer would come back.

In a relatively good place health-wise, three years old.

Yes, I had my treat, I had my surgery, the treatment, and I'm still, as of today under treatment, because my cancer was, you know, almost positive. So estrogen and progesterone positive. So I take hormone blocker every day, still for a few years. So technically, I'm still I'm still in treatment.

But just to set the context you had been diagnosed with three years, you'd gone through the treatments, and you were in a stabilized state more or less, when you had this fear, this renewed fear of it coming back, which is a real thing. Of course, yes, any cancer, you know, my diagnosis, my cancer is one it's likely to come back.

I do think the COVID context played a role. I'm not saying that without COVID, it would not have happened I probably could have happened to, to some extent, but I think COVID made it worse, it was much more of a of a struggle to be isolated pain in my body. So muscular pain, but our thinking, okay, that's the cancer coming back. I also had dizziness, I was feeling dizzy, and all the tests that I was doing, you know, the everything was coming, like very reassuring. But my brain was stuck in this very anxious mechanism where the fear was feeding the fear. Yeah. And that was very difficult to get out of it. My yoga meditation were no longer a coping mechanism. At that time I was I was really stuck.

So you've been kind of looking backwards to your prior experience with yoga and meditation that had helped sustain you through your initial stages, and is still a part of what you're about. So after this three year period, and then moving forward, what did you do then? What did you do to kind of break out of that funk as it were?

So I had my yearly visit with my oncologist. And so I shared with her that I was going through all these feelings, all these emotions, all the anxiety, the fear, and she told me, Well, you cannot stay like that we need to do something. And so she recommended a therapist, and Dr. Brian Richards, this doctor actually works with cancer patients and survivors, it does clinical trial using psilocybin, you know, it's a substance which is considered I mean, illegal in the United States. Since many years, a group of scientists started to do clinical trials with psilocybin help cancer patients deal with the fear and the anxiety of the cancer. Initially, they were working with patients at the end of their life, so more with advanced cancer, but progressively because they were getting such great results in the clinical trial that decided to extend to people who were in remissions, like, I was fitting, you know, that, that group, so we talked about it, potentially, you know, that might be something that I may want to try. And after thinking about it, after talking through it with my husband, I decided that I wanted to get on Roll into the clinical trial.

Or just be clear for me, I understand, is this some sort of a drug? Or is this a nutritional product or tub, gimme, give me just some idea what we're talking about here, it's a new thing to me put it that way.

Okay, so psilocybin is the active component of the mushroom. When we talk about magic mushrooms, it's a psychedelic. The clinical trials study is built so that first, you come several times for assessments to understand more about your levels of anxiety and depression. Also, to take vital parameters to ensure your health for the study. In the first three weeks, I had meetings with my therapist. On the fourth day, which is Thursday, that was a dosing day. I was given the medicine, and the day after, I came back for integration at the center. The setting is like a little bedroom with a sofa that can transform into a bed. The medicine is a synthetic capsule, a high dose of around 25 micrograms of psilocybin in the study. Then, you're instructed to lie down on the sofa with a nice weighted blanket, headphones, and a great playlist.

Observing you for a period of time to see how exactly.

Yeah, well, they're still with you the entire time. The therapist stays in the room throughout to ensure you are fine. There's a period of eight hours, defined through the FDA, in the clinical trial protocol. You stay in the room, but you can go to the bathroom, stand up, eat little snacks. Most of the time is spent lying down with the eyeshade, headphones, going on an inner journey, experiencing a dreamlike state where you receive images and messages.

Minutes, hours, eight hours, eight.

Eight hours is the duration defined by the FDA, endorsed by the clinical trial protocol. You stay in the room, and if needed, you can go to the bathroom, stand up, eat little snacks. Most of the time is spent lying down, experiencing an inner journey, a dreamlike state with images and messages.

Experience some sort of, for lack of better terminology, a psychedelic reaction to what you experienced. Is that fair?

Yeah, absolutely. One common phenomenon is time distortion, losing the sense of time. I remember asking my therapist what time it is, and they would say, "Look around, we're very late in the day," but only an hour had passed. Another common aspect is the dissolution of the ego. You have the sense that your little stories about Alice no longer exist, and you are part of a deeper consciousness. This sense of dissolution of the ego is reported by people who take psychedelics.

Okay. Did it have an impact on your cancer? Did it help?

It had a huge impact on my anxiety and fear. One experience during the psilocybin journey was meeting my fear. I saw symbolic representations of my fear and changed my relationship with it. Instead of seeing it as something scary, I understood it as a vulnerable part of myself that needed care and attention. It changed that relationship.

I love that term, "meet my fear." Even the word cancer evokes fear, but you met it with a different attitude. You encountered your fear, and it was no longer unknown. It was there.

Yeah, absolutely. The fear of recurrence is something we don't want to feel, so we try to push it away. But it comes back even stronger if you try to avoid it.

What led you to lean into yoga, meditation, nutrition as a response to your anxiety and fear? Moreover, what led you to make it your career, to teach it? Tell us about your journey from being a student to becoming the teacher.

I was already trying to establish a daily routine. I was practicing yoga twice a week and doing training for coaching. When I got my cancer diagnosis, I wanted to play a role in my recovery and felt the need to give self-care to my body. So I turned to practicing more yoga and meditation. Talking to my teacher, who was also a breast cancer survivor, I asked for her help, and she became my coach during the treatment. I realized that the combination of body and mind practices is crucial for balance. The body goes into fight-flight mode during cancer, and yoga and meditation help calm the mind and relax the nervous system. After treatment, reflecting on my experience, I saw the value of combining these practices under one umbrella for a synergistic effect. That's why I offer programs that combine yoga, meditation, and coaching.

When you started this cancer journey, you were employed in another field, correct? Eventually, it led you to create your own business and coaching programs. Tell me a bit about that journey, a piece of your journey to not only survive but make this your life and livelihood.

Yes, I was working in the pharmaceutical industry, but my focus shifted during cancer from my career to more spiritual and self-care practices. I felt that my career no longer brought what I wanted, and I wanted to shift my focus. My husband, also in the wellness industry, had done a similar shift before. With complementary skills—he's a massage therapist and yoga teacher—we decided to start our business for a different pace of life, slowing down, and focusing on serving others.

A traumatic event often shifts perspectives. Things that used to be important lose significance, and time becomes more valuable. The pace of life becomes tiring, and a desire to slow down arises. This shift led you to coaching and starting your own business, including a physical space for teaching yoga.

So we do have a small studio in Raleigh, North Carolina. So my husband offers the massage therapy and we have a room where we also do yoga classes and meditation classes. And I also go to different places in the Raleigh area. So I go to Senior Center. I go to teach kids yoga in school, so I you know, I go around on the CD and trying to, you know, share yoga with other people.

A little bit ago, you said something about you reacted to your cancer initially with anxiety and fear and so on. But you had to meet your fear. But now you're serving people who are going through the fear kind of the initial stages of it, they've been hit by the news of cancer or some other dramatic or traumatic experience, you're dealing with people of all ages, children and older folks, this is the kind of scenario that might play up in my mind, if I, if I'm a pastor of a church in Raleigh, North Carolina, I have a woman in my church who has been diagnosed with breast cancer, and is really scared to death. You know, she's terrified about what the diagnosis and what will happen, what I have with my, with my kids, and my job and my health, my marriage, the whole bit, she's just scared to death. And I say to her, well, there's this, there's this business that down the street here that does yoga and meditation. And there's a wonderful person who I met there and a malleus, who might be able to help you out. If I send that woman to you, what kind of things that are going to be, what kind of opportunities are going to be there for her? What do you share with her, to help her to go begin that process to meet her fear?

The first step is creating a safe space. And that's really where the yoga and meditation are really powerful practices. So, you know, we talked about the fact that when we get this diagnosis of cancer, there's so much fear, we are in this fight mode, we are in survival mode, and our entire nervous system, our entire bodies is focused on that. And it's very difficult to use our rational brain when we are in that state. So the first thing is about calming down the nervous system, and the yoga practice and the meditation practice are going to going to be able to do that. And once we are back in a calm state of mind and body, then we can use the coaching techniques, we can use different of tools to be able to help the person process what they're going through. My primary focus is women who are in recovery from breast cancer. So women who have already completed their treatment in their turn, and they are transitioning to their new normal, right in when women are in that stage, they are still dealing with side effects of cancer, they have to deal with the fear of recurrence, right? Because there's, in a way, there's no finish line in cancer, it's always something that is on your mind. And they also have changed physically, mentally, emotionally, you know, there's a lot of changes that have happened. Sure. But it's also a great opportunity for self-reflection. Really, cancer reminds us that life has an end. So how do I want, you know, to live my life? How do I want to, to make the best use of my time? And that's what we're going to work on, you know, in my programs is processing what happened? What are the silver linings? What are the things that people have learned because we learn through hardship, right. And then also looking at moving forward, how to bring more purpose, how to bring more meaning into their life.

And so you do that through classes and counseling or through coaching sessions, is yoga classes are part of what you would encourage someone to take down, you know, the actual yoga classes, is that a part of what you would encourage?

Yes, so the way I structure my programs is that with the woman, I do one yoga meditation session. So yoga always incorporates meditations. The goal of the movement is really to reach that state of meditation. And I do one coaching session. So every week we will meet twice, one time for the yoga and one time for the coaching.

So that's a somebody lives in Raleigh, North Carolina, I understand that you have opportunities for people if they want to connect with you online. And there's other ways to make that connection with you. Tell us about how that would work. If let's just say there's someone I live in Indianapolis, which is several 100 miles from Raleigh, North Carolina. And so I've got somebody here, who has similar needs, how would they get connected with you? And how would the coaching work with that kind of a scenario?

Everything can be done remotely to coaching remotely works really well. The same for yoga and meditation, we can really, you know, do a full class remotely. I think, you know, that's one of the things that COVID showed us is that we have a lot of technology today to be able to do a number of things remotely. So we get the same results either in person or remotely. Of course, you know, It's nice to be able to have that, that contact, right of being in presence together. But still, even remotely, we get really good results.

And people can certainly reach out to you?

so they can reach me on my website. So it's www.sparklesofgrace.com. They can find me on LinkedIn. So that's Alice Grasset, and I've got also a business stage sparkles of grace.com on LinkedIn. And then I've got an Instagram, which is sparkles of grace by Alice.

We're going to put all those connections in our show notes at cancerandcomedy.com. Now, as we began our conversation today, we talked you mentioned sparkle to grace, we talked about some of the things that bring a sparkle, but I just wondered, you know, the name of our podcast is cancer in comedy. So I wonder if there's any episode in this whole scenario which you've gone through you faced fear that just kind of struck you either structure kind of funny or major made you laugh or made you smile that has brought some lifted you up a little.

There's two things that come to mind. So the first one is, I really like reading, I decided that I wanted to read, you know, funny books. So you know, like, story that would be uplifting, sad story or sad fiction. So I got a book from a French author called Daniel Pinnock. And he has this series of book about a family. And I had my book who is with me when I was going from surgery. And just before the surgery, you know, you see the NSA anesthesiologist, I'd say I see that right. And it was so interesting, by the book cover, because it was a little bit cartoonish, a little bit funny, you know, illustration. And that was nice, because it sort of helped us to connect at a different level me patient him the doctor, you know, so just being able to share something as a funny cartoon with one of the doctors that really brought a smile to you know, to me when as that was about to go to surgery, so that was nice, then the other story is, so same logic, I was thinking, Okay, I'm going to read funny books, and I'm going to watch funny movies. So I found a comedy and it was supposed to be one of the, you know, this Christmas comedy, something light. But and at the end of the story, you actually discover that one of the main character had breast cancer, and I had no idea about it. But the way the story was built, and the way the characters were, were dealing you know, with the breast cancer experience, brought some comfort and some a little bit of lightness to what I was going through, you know, it was not really intentional that me watching that that's moving, I didn't know that would be breast cancer in it. But the fact that it was lots of love lots of this family caring for each other. It brought a little bit of that to me as well.

In that call however, these stories lift us up a little bit. And in your case with the first art Utopia great even lifted up your doctor, anesthesiologist, a little bit, too, you had a moment there. I think that's what I think that's what levity and comedy does. It gives us a moment of lightness and brightness that can help bridge those sad gaps, those difficult challenges, you know, those fearful moments that you we've talked about during our time together? What is one more thing I'll leave, I'll leave you with this. And that is, what is a word of encouragement you might give to that woman who's just coming out of you know, her breast cancer journey. She's had her surgery and she and she is looking for just a word of encouragement, what would you say to her?

I would tell them to go outside, be in nature, and just marvel at the beauty of nature, the beauty of creation, I think, in just looking at a sunset, looking at the ocean or a flower, there's so much beauty in there and that brings you to connect the connection to something bigger, it really brings you to your spirituality, and you don't feel like your little lonely self-having to deal with your diagnosis your diagnosis anymore, you're part of something bigger, and that brings a lot of comfort. So that would be my recommendation. Go in nature and connect with the beauty of creation.

Go in nature and connect with creation. That's a good place for us to conclude our conversation and a fascinating conversation. It has been her name is Alice Grasset. She's at sparklesofgrace.com. She has been our guest today on the Cancer and Comedy podcasts with Dr. Brad Miller, we thank you for listening.